Requesting EMI Deltas

[Kwai Chang]

And in 5 years they would get rid of MONO-A$-TOTEM because it required discipline which equals damage/loss/overhead to all things 'profit'! The mono dedicated mix was for ultra gifted producers such as Tom Wilson(? Dylan, Zappa) but its inherent flaw was initial expense/delay/commitment and suggested retail price were self defeating. Too bad Stereo wasn't invented first. Mono would be a city in Roma and Easter would mean Unity!
The blessed freedom of popularity.
More than the...
Peace friends!
KC

[harrylime]

I'm trying to get my head around this. Why would there be a count in on ISHST on the Delta, but not on the twin track.

What exactly are you listening to? As mentioned in the SH thread, ‘Seventeen’ was only recorded to twin track and the mono was mixed from that, after the edits were made. The famous count in was sourced from take 9, de rest was take 1. The original takes, both with count-ins, were bootlegged but also released later (take 1 on Bootleg Beatles and take 9 already on the ‘95 FAAB single).

[slane]

As mentioned, one of the February 1963 reels that has been bootlegged does appear to be a delta mono reel. Either that or the bootleggers accidentally folded it down to mono (but why would they when the others are in stereo?). When the 1963 Bootleg Recordings came out, it offered a surprise in that DYWTKAS and ATOH were in stereo (they had been mono on the bootlegs), and so were probably sourced from the twin-track.

The count-in of Take 10 of ISHST (a copy of Take 9) on the (mono) bootleg is missing, perhaps indicating that this portion of tape was used for the edited on count-in on the final mono master.

All tracks that day were recorded to mono and twin-track simultaneously, except the last song (Twist And Shout) which went to twin-track only.

Though none of the delta mono recordings were used for the LP, the same method was used when it came to mixing (really just copying the twin-track tapes with added EQ and compression). Nine of the songs (ISHST, Anna, Chains, Boys, Ask Me Why, DYWTKAS, ATOH, TAP and TAS) had the same 'mix' going simultaneously to mono and stereo (and numbered one 'take' higher than the take it was made from). So effectively those nine mono mixes are delta mono versions of the stereo mixes.

For some reason, Misery and Baby It's You (the two songs overdubbed by George Martin) were given dedicated mono and stereo mixes. The other 3 songs were LMD and PSILY (both originally mono-only recordings, given a mock-stereo treatment for stereo) and Please Please Me (mono master used for the mono LP, stereo mix of an alternate take used for the stereo LP).

From March, From Me To You and Thank You Girl seem to have never been 'mixed', the twin-track and delta mono session tapes merely edited (differently to each other) to produce the mono and stereo masters of those songs.

[Krussell2021]

Thanks for all the explanations. These explanations make things much clearer to somebody who is new to the fact that EMI produced something they called Deltas.
In the world of the Beatles, we all discover things at different times. All fascinating of course.

[harrylime]

As mentioned, one of the February 1963 reels that has been bootlegged does appear to be a delta mono reel. Either that or the bootleggers accidentally folded it down to mono (but why would they when the others are in stereo?). When the 1963 Bootleg Recordings came out, it offered a surprise in that DYWTKAS and ATOH were in stereo (they had been mono on the bootlegs), and so were probably sourced from the twin-track.

The surviving documentation is clear that the reel was recorded twin-track only, and don't forget the copies that ended up at the bootleggers weren't necessarily native dubs, most of it came from Scott and others that leaked it privately and that ultimately got copied further. That means that any step in the process could have incurred a mixdown.

The count-in of Take 10 of ISHST (a copy of Take 9) on the (mono) bootleg is missing, perhaps indicating that this portion of tape was used for the edited on count-in on the final mono master.

Why should that pertain to just mono? Why not just take 10 = dub of take 9, take 1 played back for recording hand clap overdubs into take 11 and 12, all twin-track? Then on Feb 25th, they cut out the count-in of 10, spliced into 12, mixed that to mono, as documented for E48979 "RM from edit of takes 10/12 (2:50)"?

All tracks that day were recorded to mono and twin-track simultaneously, except the last song (Twist And Shout) which went to twin-track only.

Barrett documented that TAP/ISHST (reel E48875), ATOH/DYWTKNAS (reel E48876) were also recorded to twin-track only.

Though none of the delta mono recordings were used for the LP, the same method was used when it came to mixing (really just copying the twin-track tapes with added EQ and compression). Nine of the songs (ISHST, Anna, Chains, Boys, Ask Me Why, DYWTKAS, ATOH, TAP and TAS) had the same 'mix' going simultaneously to mono and stereo (and numbered one 'take' higher than the take it was made from). So effectively those nine mono mixes are delta mono versions of the stereo mixes.

Even though Lewisohn claims there were simultaneous mixing sessions, there's no documentation of a stereo mix reel, also mixing signatures like the fade-outs match the mono and stereo versions exactly and of course we have GM's recollection that the albums was never meant to be released as stereo (implicating the compilation of the twin-track master takes was used when it ultimately was released). There's no definitive proof of either scenario but I'm inclined to believe they only performed a mono mixing session.

[slane]

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[slane]

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[slane]

The surviving documentation is clear that the reel was recorded twin-track only, and don't forget the copies that ended up at the bootleggers weren't necessarily native dubs, most of it came from Scott and others that leaked it privately and that ultimately got copied further. That means that any step in the process could have incurred a mixdown.

Barrett documented that TAP/ISHST (reel E48875), ATOH/DYWTKNAS (reel E48876) were also recorded to twin-track only.

I did simplify things slightly. The basic takes of TAP, ISHST, ATOH and DYWTKAS were recorded to twin-track only according to the documentation (presumably because overdubs onto those songs were planned from the start). But once work started on the 'final' overdubbed versions the delta mono was running too.

(I suppose it could be possible that those basic takes were recorded to mono as well, but were then taped over when overdubs started and it became apparent that these would not be the final versions).

The basic takes of Baby It's You near the end of the day were also recorded to T/T only. Either they knew this would also be overdubbed (by George Martin), or like the next (and final) song, Twist And Shout, they had just stopped running the delta mono by that point.

Why should that pertain to just mono? Why not just take 10 = dub of take 9, take 1 played back for recording hand clap overdubs into take 11 and 12, all twin-track? Then on Feb 25th, they cut out the count-in of 10, spliced into 12, mixed that to mono, as documented for E48979 "RM from edit of takes 10/12 (2:50)"?

Except that the count-in intro that is missing from Take 10 is not edited into place before either Take 1 or Take 12 on the circulating tape. Even if this tape was originally a T/T tape that was folded to mono by the bootleggers, if it was something like you descibe above then it would be that way on the bootleg. So I'm going with this is an actual delta mono tape, and that the intro of Take 10 has been cut out for a reason.

It's been a while since I studied all of this in detail (the thread was on SH forum a few years back, and someone has also posted part of it here). But I just don't think it's likely that all the reels would be copied in stereo except one which was accidentally copied in mono (which just happens to be a reel that was actually recorded in mono, as well as T/T). Also, while coming to no firm conclusion at the time, the edit at the start of ISHST seemed to be minutely different in mono and stereo. If both mixes were mixed from an already edited twin-track then that would not happen.

Even though Lewisohn claims there were simultaneous mixing sessions, there's no documentation of a stereo mix reel, also mixing signatures like the fade-outs match the mono and stereo versions exactly and of course we have GM's recollection that the albums was never meant to be released as stereo (implicating the compilation of the twin-track master takes was used when it ultimately was released). There's no definitive proof of either scenario but I'm inclined to believe they only performed a mono mixing session.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Lewisohn said in Recording Sessions that the tracks were first mixed into mono (in a somewhat random order), and when that was done they were mixed into stereo separately (but in the same random order). What he missed at that time was the tracks were mixed in the same random order because they were (mostly) all one mix going to both formats at once. I've since been in touch with Mark and he says he's aware that the tracks were (mostly) mixed simultaneously into stereo and mono. We'll see what else he says in his next book.

The released stereo album is definitely not a compilation of the 'raw' twin-track masters. The documentation indicates that these are 'mixes' (albeit with the description 'EQd and Compressed Copies', or something similar). Also, while some or even most fade-outs were applied 'live', the fade out for Chains was almost certainly a post-production choice (and the stereo and mono are identical in that respect, as are the other simultaneous mixes).

In a nutshell, all the songs that received simultaneous mono/stereo mixes seem to be identical in every respect (apart from being mono or stereo, obviously), while the songs that received dedicated mono and stereo mixes have differences that can be pointed to (eg. intro of Misery, fade-out of Baby It's You).

[slane]

Here's a screenshot of the small timing anomaly in the intro of I Saw Her Standing There:

Top is the stereo version intro (folded to mono), bottom is the mono version intro (highlighted section is 'Four!' going into the track proper).



Notice that in the middle of the highlighted section, there is a slight gap/difference in the top (folded stereo) waveform (@ 2 secs 60). When listening to these in panned stereo, the audio seems to come more from the right after this, as if the bottom (mono) version skips slightly ahead at this point (I speed matched the tracks beforehand).

My conclusion is that even though the main track (from Take 12) was a simultaneous stereo/delta mono mix, the edited on count-ins (from Take 10) were done separately after the main mix. Hence why it would be possible that the Take 10 intro that's missing from the circulating mono tape was used here.

We don't have the equivalent twin-track session tape to compare to, but I'm guessing the same thing was done there.

[harrylime]

Right, so what you're saying is, the Take 10-12 reel was in both formats, spliced for both final edits, and the (delta) mono got bootlegged. Being 'delta' in the sense that it was from the live dub, not so much the live recording session. That does make sense although it's weird that for example Recording The Beatles doesn't seem to mention that 'second' form of the delta mix.

By explanation of the other albums properties I agree it must have been simultaneously mixed. That must mean then that either the LP master reels was the direct result of that session, or the stereo reel went undocumented?