WOA76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:37 pm
Lord Reith: Question
Does having recordings and photos from other artists at The Star Club help you get the picture in your mind of how this recording sounds???
Yes, the pictures help and I can understand what I am hearing. But it doesn't correspond to Ted's description of a hanging microphone. I don't doubt he did that but on these recordings there are several differing sound perspectives. Most of the tracks the guitars are loud but more importantly very CLOSE. There is little reverb on the guitars, and yet the drums which were a few feet away have a far more distant and echoey quality (which also varies between sets). The vocal PA system is a long way off on most songs, probably a good 15 feet away. Looking at the photos and hearing the raw recordings, the microphone was probably to the side of the stage near John's amp so it got his guitar full on up close and the rest of the band further away, and the vocals more distant still.
There are a couple of tracks with a different sound perspective. I'm Talking About You has very loud vocals and they are closer, and the guitar more distant. I think that for this night, the microphone was moved to a more suitable position closer to the vocal PA and further from the band.
I realise this doesn't correspond to the story as Ted told it but that is what happened as revealed by studying and demixing the tape. I'll take the evidence of my ears over that of an old man's memory any day!
Last edited by Lord Reith on Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bazilnerk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:46 pm
He was convinced it was totally unplayable, so not surprising.
Well, I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief it is now in safe hands. I think the safety copy is only 7&1/2 ips isn't it, so not ideal and they may have applied filters to it. So I think ideally you'd want a new transfer, and plug any problem bits with the safety copy. I am just so glad this is being taken seriously at last. I cannot believe Apple did not buy that tape!!
WOA76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:37 pm
Lord Reith: Question
Does having recordings and photos from other artists at The Star Club help you get the picture in your mind of how this recording sounds???
Yes, the pictures help and I can understand what I am hearing. But it doesn't correspond to Ted's description of a hanging microphone. I don't doubt he did that but on these recordings there are several differing sound perspectives. Most of the tracks the guitars are loud but more importantly very CLOSE. There is little reverb on the guitars, and yet the drums which were a few feet away have a far more distant and echoey quality (which also varies between sets). The vocal PA system is a long way off on most songs, probably a good 15 feet away. Looking at the photos and hearing the raw recordings, the microphone was probably to the side of the stage near John's amp so it got his guitar full on up close and the rest of the band further away, and the vocals more distant still.
There are a couple of tracks with a different sound perspective. I'm Talking About You has very loud vocals and they are closer, and the guitar more distant. I think that for this night, the microphone was moved to a more suitable position closer to the vocal PA and further from the band.
I realise this doesn't correspond to the story as Ted told it but that is what happened as revealed by studying and demixing the tape. I'll take the evidence of my ears over that of an old man's memory any day!
Bazilnerk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:10 am
Ah, the cats out of the bag then I see! Yes Peter bought the tapes from Larry earlier this year, hence my remark about knowing they wouldn't end up in a dumpster. I said I knew where the tape was, I didn't say Larry had it.
Here's what happened. A few months the back we were discussing the tape and there were rumours that Jackson had bought the tape, so I asked Hans if he could find out from Larry if there was any truth in it. At the time it was total rubbish, Larry had heard nothing and he wasn't even aware of Jacksons interest.
Larry must have taken things into his own hands as only a week or do later I heard from Hans that Larry had now managed to contact Peter Jackson and that he no longer owned the tape. I was however sworn to secrecy. So perhaps this board should take a tiny bit of credit for mentioning the rumour in the first place.
Glad it's out there now.
Peter talks at length about this in the latest Things We Said Today podcast. I listened to it yesterday (the podcast, that is!). He says he went to Apple and asked for a copy of the tape, and they said "We only have the rights to release it, we don't have the actual tape!" (that in itself is alarming to me). So Peter says he asked his researcher or whoever to find the owner, and she came back with Larry Grossberg. So maybe while she was researching Larry heard something and reached out.
Peter says the tape arrived and was "moldy" but that they have specialists who are able to physically restore it. There was no mention of the backup copy LG made but I hope that was part of the deal too. Then Peter says that MAL can rebalance it but that he wants to go a step further. It's funny, he actually describes something I talked about a couple of years ago where theoretically you could train a super computer to "know" what the studio voices sound like and then rebuild the missing sonic components. This - as far as I know - is still science fiction but I was pleased that they are also thinking this way and what is more have the resources to pursue it. But he talks about that in relation to the Star Club and the distant quality of the vocals.
He also gives some demonstrations of MAL by playing all the stems generated for Day Tripper. All I can say is, wow. This thing is quite a bit more advanced than anything else. The stems are incredibly clean and it was actually able to pull the harmonies apart. Paul and George sounded a little robotic, but the isolation of John singing alone just stopped me in my tracks! Incredible!
The interview is also interesting because it reveals the level of Peter's fannishness. For obvious reasons he would have not kept up with the bootleg scene for the last 20 years but he talks about the swinging Pig cds and all that stuff and wants all the same stuff out that we want. There is a funny comment where he jokingly says Apple are probably thinking "Who have we invited in here?" For sure we have a huge ally in this guy. It's the best thing that ever could have happened. And even if he produces a brilliant restoration of the Star Club and Apple dither and stall and take 20 years to do it, at least someone with clout is behind it.
I wonder that they did not hand out the tapes to the Beatles as requested in 1998 after the court case!
I hope someone in his camp tells Peter about the Lord Reith work of the SC Tape.
I wonder who this guy Larry is. I thought George got the tape after the lawsuit but I guess that's not the case. This is all very fascinating . . .
Last edited by Gringo557 on Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lord Reith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:25 pm
Well, I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief it is now in safe hands. I think the safety copy is only 7&1/2 ips isn't it, so not ideal and they may have applied filters to it. So I think ideally you'd want a new transfer, and plug any problem bits with the safety copy. I am just so glad this is being taken seriously at last. I cannot believe Apple did not buy that tape!!
Lord Reith...this is unbelievable. Things are falling into place. Magnetophon Band caused this. All that rises must converge!
I've never been more excited about anything. Thank you for your unbending conviction and your high standards.
Keep up the greatness!
KC
Lord Reith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:25 pm
Well, I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief it is now in safe hands. I think the safety copy is only 7&1/2 ips isn't it, so not ideal and they may have applied filters to it. So I think ideally you'd want a new transfer, and plug any problem bits with the safety copy. I am just so glad this is being taken seriously at last. I cannot believe Apple did not buy that tape!!
Actually 7.5 ips is fine for a tape recorded as slow as the original there would have been no benefit to 15 ips as the audio information is not there. It is a flat transfer. The sectio heard on the clip from the auction house is a clip from the back up. Listening to the Things We Said Today set, Jackson hasn't had his experts attempt to play the original yet. Put it this way. When Larry had the backup digitized in the mid 2010's the engineer examined the original tape and decided it was too fragile - up to that pointbit had been kept in Larry's archive alongside all the other tapes from the Lingasong issue- so I hope Peter's people can get something off it, but the back up won't be a million miles different to the original as it's already better fidelity than the original. It was made In the first place to avoid further damage to the original and copied 100% flat. That back up was then used as the source copied to multitrack tape that was then worked on.
I should also say, that we'll recorded 7.5ips can sound extremely good. I've remastered from 7.5ips tapes where 15ips no longer exist and nobody has noticed the difference.
georgefromhenley wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:38 pm
I wonder that they did not hand out the tapes to the Beatles as requested in 1998 after the court case!
The Beatles sued a company issuing a copy of the Lingasong "restoration". The company did not own the original tape.
Gringo557 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:28 am
I wonder who this guy Larry is. I thought George got the tape after the lawsuit but I guess that's not the case. This is all very fascinating . . .
Larry Grossberg was the producer of the 1977 Lingasong issue of the tapes. He used what little was available to "restore" the original back in 1977. Filtering, looping etc. Not much could be done back then. He owned the tape and all it's backups, from that point until Peter Jackson bought it a few months ago. The lawsuit stopped anybody issuing the recordings but did not give anyone the right to re-claim the tape from Larry who wasn't being sued by anyone. Blocking a release and gaining rights does not automatically give you the right to the original tape.
Apple will have at least one early copy (be it full or excerpts, we don't know) but if Peter Jackson was saying counts for anything, nobody will probably realise about it (If they don't know they have 14 hours of 1995 session video then who's going to know about a 50-year-old tape copy of Hamburg made by Allan Williams) - Sounds like somebody really needs to properly catalogue their holdings! (Give us a job - Jeff! )
Lord Reith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:36 am
He does say that he thinks Apple have no interest in ever releasing the tape and he is doing it more as a personal project to try and develop MAL further. But he is certainly someone they can't really ignore. If nothing else, he has Paul and Ringo's favour and that counts for a lot. But he is also in a position to lead by example. My biggest complaint about Apple is their total and utter lack of imagination and vision. Peter has those qualities in spades. He is just the guy to drag them out of their apathy and show them just WHAT is possible. Get Back was a start. An expanded version of the Maysles footage would be an obvious winner too. The Star Club would be more niche, but it definitely could work. This is the sort of stuff Apple would never do on their own. There would have been no Get Back series without Jackson, and the footage would have just rotted in the vault till the end of time.
He lives near you, doesn't he? You probably pass him on the street most days. Why don't you pop over and 'feel his collar'? You could be our 'Deep Throat'. Meet him in some dark, underground car park. "Oi Pete, mate, need a word wiv you. Fink you may have sumfin' wot me an' my associates would like to hear. Get my drift?" * Take Miggynav with you and 'persuade' him to hand over the MAL-enhanced tapes in a brown paper bag, no questions asked.
