Who was it who posted on BZ a few years back about Paris being shot on 800 line videotape?

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Lord Reith
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Re: Who was it who posted on BZ a few years back about Paris being shot on 800 line videotape?

Post by Lord Reith »

dannysonar wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:49 pm
Lord Reith wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:08 pm That's a start, thanks. But there was someone who knew a whole lot about it. Hopefully he'll read this post.

819 lines is twice the resolution of British tv at the time (405 lines). Later the Britis changed to 625 lines but this would be even better.
i had vaguely heard or read that French TV in these days used 819 lines and a quick search on Wikipedia seems to confirm this :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/819_line
This system has been invented in France.

Yes, that is the system I was thinking of. It is equivalent in digital terms to 816×736 which is technically HD (roughly equivalent to 960×720). I am fairly sure that whoever started that thread said that there is an 819 line tape of the Paris concert somewhere although whether there is any equipment left that could actually play it is debatable.
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Re: Who was it who posted on BZ a few years back about Paris being shot on 800 line videotape?

Post by dannysonar »

harrylime wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:31 pm
dannysonar wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:49 pm i had vaguely heard or read that French TV in these days used 819 lines and a quick search on Wikipedia seems to confirm this :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/819_line
This system has been invented in France.
I already mentioned this in my reply and it could be plausible that it was broadcasted live that way, but the question is werther was recorded on some kind of videotape in that resolution (and obviously if this survived somehow).
I don't see in your reply the fact that it was invented in France or the fact that it was the usual (and not experimental) broacasting system in France. That's all I meant to add. I'm not a specialist at all in these matters, just wanted to help.
Something that is pointed out in the Wikipedia article is the fact that even if the quality was theorically HD, there were some other technical limitations that prevented the quality from being "real" HD. Being French, I've seen a lot of archival footage from that era and never noticed anything of stunning quality.
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Re: Who was it who posted on BZ a few years back about Paris being shot on 800 line videotape?

Post by harrylime »

Apologies, I mentioned 'SECAM' which for me stands for 'France's own television system' but I understand it might not follow that easily for people not versed in the subject. I have to correct you that it's wasn't 'the usual' system, that was in fact 625 lines, an adaptation of the German system that ended up as the standard. 819 was only used for the (original) first channel in France, Belgium and Monaco. When the secondary channels started they all opted for 625 instead, and when color was implemented it used it too. The main drawback of the original French implementation was the wildly higher required bandwith (roughly three times that of a regular channel) and secondary that the audio signal was on the other 'side' of the video signal. This meant that when allocating the frequency spectrum to individual channels, it caused an extra loss of space because the 'odd' 819 channel didn't occupy the usual reserved space for its audio channel and did occupy an extra part instead, blocking another channel from being placed right after it (tv channels are spaced on fixed intervals) .

The third drawback that put the final nail in the coffin was that the color tv's introduced in the mid-60s had a lower absolute resolution, because they featured three groups of separately colored dots (the red, green and blue ones we all know) with a shadow mask. Basically a plate with holes (later wires in Sony's Trinitron) instead of one group of white dots without a mask that display B/W television. That also caused all B/W signals, including 819, to be displayed in effectively 625ish quality or less and thus it left no effective use for the format anymore (let alone it didn't feature color obviously).

Back on-topic, I would be very doubtful that a 819 line recording of the Paris concert exists somewhere. Ampex recorders in use by RTF did support it, but this was 9 out of 10 times used for regular delayed broadcasting (recording a show during working hours, broadcast it at night / on the weekend and optionally a rebroadcast on a later date). For archival footage it would feature regular 625 line recording as otherwise it wouldn't be portable to any other form of broadcasting. I have to say I've never observed *any* 819 line archival recording and I'm not sure INA or some other French archival institute even feature those recordings.
Last edited by harrylime on Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who was it who posted on BZ a few years back about Paris being shot on 800 line videotape?

Post by Lord Reith »

Okay, good answer thanks.

Being shot from below the stage and upwards it probably isn't very good even on the best master.
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