5.1 VS 4.1... your thoughts please

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RubberSolof
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5.1 VS 4.1... your thoughts please

Post by RubberSolof »

I am interested if anyone else feels this way also...

Can you guys help me understand something about 5.1 vs 4.1 (is this basically Quad?)

I own a lovely little system by Logitech that is Dolby THX 5.1 based. I listen to everything through it but very rarely does the 5.1 sound better than the 4.1 settings (and of course i mean while listening to things specifically mixed to 5.1).

Usually, the 5.1 has slightly more presence in the main vocal in the center...but when I switch back to the 4.1 everything just sounds much deeper and richer and to me at least have, seems to have a larger deeper and fuller sound field... even if the source material is mixed to 5.1.

Am I imagining that? Is something being lost when I do that, from ALL the speakers... or just the center a bit? Is the mix projecting from the speakers greatly affected by doing this?

I love my music and I always want it to sound the best I can...but am I shortchanging the 5.1 mixes when I play them on the 4.1 settings even though to me it sounds much better.. usually.

Or is it just personal preference? Do you guys experience that too??

I'd love to know your opinion on it...

Thanks!!

RS
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billylentz
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Re: 5.1 VS 4.1... your thoughts please

Post by billylentz »

Well, I guess in theory 5.1 should have more separation, hence more clarity and potentially more quality.

But the industry is so cheap and greedy about these mixes we hardly ever get actual 5.1 mixes. Most of them are almost just the regular stereo mixes with a few ambiance on the rear speakers, maybe with a few attractions on the center and occasional highlighted details. They just don´t want to offer those separate channels. But they do want to profit from it, so they keep trying to push these fake surround mixes onto us.

It´s rare we get worthy surround mixes. Take the new "All things must pass"... The blu-ray adds an awful absurd lot to the package price, and the talk is that it´s another pointless surround, like the old "Live in Japan" SACD and many others. I still haven´t had the chance to check it for myself, but getting an expensive set like that is such a sacrifice... I feel bad already that there´s the possibility of such a frustrating blu-ray.

But a well done 5.1 mix is surely a nice thing to listen to. Maybe in the seventies, when they were doing quad mixes, they were willing more to offer something that would actually make some difference, so the listener would feel it was worth spending some extra money on it, and that´s why we like when we hear those. But not now. Just offer a 5.1.-surrond-atmos-space-dazzling so something can be put on the sticker. Very few people are paying attention anyway. And be sure to add some ultra-mega-power-blooster bass, so people on cellphone speakers will feel it´s a powerful sound.

But I don´t think it´s a matter of some system being intrinsically better than other. Given the music is good and the recording, mixing and mastering is well done, it will still depend on the gear, the room, the moment of the day, because it interferes with the surrounding real-life sounds, and, ultimately, the taste.

That´s how I feel about it. Mine is just a non-technical view. I´m no musician, producer or anything; just enjoy the music too.
Last edited by billylentz on Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RubberSolof
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Re: 5.1 VS 4.1... your thoughts please

Post by RubberSolof »

Thanks Billy!!
hogshead of hellfire
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Re: 5.1 VS 4.1... your thoughts please

Post by hogshead of hellfire »

Well, quad in the '70s came about (in 1969: Columbia engineers Ben Bauer and Peter Scheiber?, and consultant Classical producer Thomas Mowrey working with "Synthesized Quad" matrix; while JVC put it on "Discrete" 4-channel reel and 8-track tape as well as records) solely with audio in mind, because: the status of owning a home stereo system was (then) the ONLY alternative to TV or a movie ticket. It had no ".1" subwoofer.

5.1 is best left instead for the soundtrack accompanying visual media. The mindset behind it has more to do with trying to recreate a cinematic experience by expanding the soundfield, mainly to compensate for the fact of the home viewer not watching a movie screen (or being in a concert audience).

As gimmicky as some quad sounded like, there WAS an attempt to make the listener perceive as if they WERE seated in the middle of the performance (rather than just being a spectator of it). The best of it available, in its original time, though was more expensive than standard two channel (both the equipment as well as recordings) and the bad decade-long economy of the '70s made it die-out in popularity by 1978.
Mixerrog
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Re: 5.1 VS 4.1... your thoughts please

Post by Mixerrog »

I upmix & mix my 5.1 songs for true 5.1 systems as I have 5 full range speakers as my main system I use (no sub on it) + two 5.1 systems with subs (one in my computer mixing room) so I can preview the sound so my mixes should sound best played on a true 5.1 system. I mix lead vocals like many commercial releases in true 5.1 that have the lead vocal in the center with a reduced -3 to -6 db (depends on the song) vocal presence in the front channels also to give the lead vocal a better front presence when not in the surround sweet spot IMO. I like to mix backing vocals when able to separate them to the rear channels. I prefer musical separations in each speaker whenever possible also. For me, this presents the most listenable surround experience for my ears anyway.

One reason a 4.1 setting might sound better than a 5.1 seeing is the surround mix you are playing is actually a quad mix with only a sub-woofer added as many record companies just release the old quad mixes without having to go back to the original session tapes to mix to true 5.1 to save money but still mark the product as 5.1 I have found in many cases!

I have found many original quad mixes can have very discreet sound which I like but the vocals are not always projected well or sometimes only in one front channel so sound better remixed to 5.1.

Rog
RubberSolof
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Re: 5.1 VS 4.1... your thoughts please

Post by RubberSolof »

Mixerrog wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:41 pm I upmix & mix my 5.1 songs for true 5.1 systems as I have 5 full range speakers as my main system I use (no sub on it) + two 5.1 systems with subs (one in my computer mixing room) so I can preview the sound so my mixes should sound best played on a true 5.1 system. I mix lead vocals like many commercial releases in true 5.1 that have the lead vocal in the center with a reduced -3 to -6 db (depends on the song) vocal presence in the front channels also to give the lead vocal a better front presence when not in the surround sweet spot IMO. I like to mix backing vocals when able to separate them to the rear channels. I prefer musical separations in each speaker whenever possible also. For me, this presents the most listenable surround experience for my ears anyway.

One reason a 4.1 setting might sound better than a 5.1 seeing is the surround mix you are playing is actually a quad mix with only a sub-woofer added as many record companies just release the old quad mixes without having to go back to the original session tapes to mix to true 5.1 to save money but still mark the product as 5.1 I have found in many cases!

I have found many original quad mixes can have very discreet sound which I like but the vocals are not always projected well or sometimes only in one front channel so sound better remixed to 5.1.

Rog
Thanks guys... Rog...you already know I'm a fan of your mixes :-)
hogshead of hellfire
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Re: 5.1 VS 4.1... your thoughts please

Post by hogshead of hellfire »

Pictorial examples of what a (then) state-of-the-art quad setup consisted of in its heyday:
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hogshead of hellfire
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Re: 5.1 VS 4.1... your thoughts please

Post by hogshead of hellfire »

box of that tape:
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