Disque Americ Revolver

Fan created remixes and rare variations
magoocus
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

Post by magoocus »

Hey Paul the easiest way is to not overcomplicate and just oops the thing; flip one channel & combine and see if there's any leftovers. If there aren't any leftovers then your track is true mono, they cancel out. If there are, then the track isn't true mono and is out of phase, as I understand the meaning of it.

Image
There's A Place - true mono, one side cancels out the other.

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All My Loving does not cancel out, it's not true mono, out of phase.

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I'll Cry Instead has a lot of garbage left over, as do all the songs I've tried on this album; badly out of phase.

Image
Mr. Moonlight, true mono, it cancels cleanly.

My question would be why 2 of the cds are true mono and the other 2 aren't. Did the same person transfer these? Were they transferred on the same equipment?
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paul62
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

Post by paul62 »

Good to see you magoocus (I'll send you a PM)!!

I think it became accepted that the first four CDs were mono tapes transferred with a stereo reel to reel machine: I don't know if that is the case, but it's become accepted as the case as it's a very plausible scenario.

I'd checked tracks from the first four CDs quite a while back, finding slight volume and EQ differences between left and right channels: those EQ/volume differences would be enough to leave behind traces of sound when doing OOPS extractions, even if the track seems to be 100% in phase. When the track is out of phase (one digital sample alone is enough to make a track "out of phase") then you can bet your bippy that traces of sound will be left from an OOPS extraction!!

I looked at a track from the CD EP Collection box a few weeks ago, using Adobe Audition: it was 100% in phase (or so it would seem). Using the centre channel extractor to reduce the volume of the centre by 48dB left the sound of Paul's bass-playing as the residue left from the extraction. Which was a pleasant surprise, in a way: something like that could be useful for a remix project!!

As to why these old tapes aren't always 100% in phase: it's probably a miracle when they are 100% in phase!!
Some tapes may never have been 100% in phase, from the moment the original recording was made, or may have lost the character of being 100% in phase when mixdowns were done (and then subsequent mixdowns to masters) and then creating dubs of the masters for use elsewhere et cetera. Using several different reel to reel tape recorders in these various processes would play a part, as well. So would bad splices in the tapes (or good splices gone bad), stretching in the tape (especially where one edge gets a bit more stretched than the other) et cetera.
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

Post by Doug »

A couple of questions, paul62.

1. We're dealing with the digital era, here. Even if the mono tape was transferred on a stereo machine, why wouldn't they just clone one channel or the other and make them identical before putting out a CD just to make sure there's no phase garbage creeping around in the signal?

2. If I remember correctly, 2 of the 4 Canadian CDs had inverted waveforms compared to the U.S. issues. Is there any way to tell which is "right"? IS there such a thing as "right" when it comes to that?
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

Post by beatlesfanfromsop »

Lord Reith wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:04 am
beatlesfanfromsop wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:28 pm From the original 1987 cds,I have SPLHCB through Abbey Road.
I bought them back in 1989.
I always thought SPLHCB sounded the best.
I have never heard PPM through Revolver,and I read someplace years ago that it was PPM and WTB
that was in Mono,and now I just read that the first four 1987 UK CDS are the UK Mono Mix.
Mike
The first four were in mono, the next two were 1987 remixes, then in 1990 Disque Americ had to make new glass masters and so Capitol needed to access the tapes again, at which point they were sent different tapes of Help, Rubber Soul, Revolver and With The Beatles.
Hi Lord Reith,
You are right,I forgot about Help! and Rubber Soul being new stereo remixes,
and I forgot about Past Masters vol.1 & vol.2 were
apart of the UK 1987 releases.
I think the 1987 UK releases are now out of print.
Mike
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paul62
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

Post by paul62 »

Doug wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:23 pm A couple of questions, paul62.

1. We're dealing with the digital era, here. Even if the mono tape was transferred on a stereo machine, why wouldn't they just clone one channel or the other and make them identical before putting out a CD just to make sure there's no phase garbage creeping around in the signal?
Exactly! That's what they could have done, especially once Abbey Road was fitted out with a digital work station to enable audio editing: I don't know if the studio was fitted out with something like that back in '86/'87 when the CDs were being prepared, though!! Even without digital gear (in an all-analogue studio set up), there are ways to get one channel from a dual channel mono tape to become the only channel used in an all-analogue transfer.

As it turns out, yesterday afternoon I digitised the first seven singles from the late '70s UK Singles Collection (the "green sleeves" box). Playing back "A Hard Day's Night" right now to check that out: looking at the Phase Meter in Adobe Audition, I can see that the track isn't 100% in phase. It's shifting between 90% to 99% throughout the track, changing from moment to moment. Using the Automatic Phase Correction function in Adobe Audition made no meaningful changes to that situation, either, I'll add!!

(Comparing the spectral view of the vinyl single versus the '87 CD of "A Hard Day's Night": they look similar to each other, in an EQ sense plus neither are 100% in phase at every moment throughout the track when played).

These phase differences between left and right channels may well be baked into the master tapes. Stylus/cartridge misalignment can also cause phase issues, in a similar way to how tape head misalignment causes phase issues through azimuth problems. Wow and flutter in the tape and/or in the vinyl disc wouldn't help, either! A combination of some or all of these factors could well be the reason for the Phase Meter readings I'm getting.

Image

Doug wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:23 pm 2. If I remember correctly, 2 of the 4 Canadian CDs had inverted waveforms compared to the U.S. issues. Is there any way to tell which is "right"? IS there such a thing as "right" when it comes to that?
Interesting points, Doug. Something like "Blackbird" from the 2009 mono remaster is inverted when compared to the 2009 stereo remaster. "She Said She Said" from the 2009 stereo remaster of Revolver is inverted when compared to both the 1987 CD version and the DA version. Finding out what one is correct is something that could be discerned by examining the elements that went into the final mixdown and comparing these to the final mixdown that was released (assuming that the final mixdown tape and the work tapes are all played back through the same tape machine to ensure that a proper cross-check can be made). Having the exact same tape machines and mixing desk et cetera used when making the tracks would help (as would all information about modifications that were made to the gear since the recordings were made, exact information about how the pieces of equipment were connected to each other on the day of recording and on the day of mixing et cetera). Not sure that all these boxes can be ticked all these many years later, so I think it might be a tough job to get infallible answers!!

From what I understand, all Beatles work tapes and mixdown tapes were digitised twice (once pre-"Love" and once post-"Love"). I've noticed that tracks from the Early Takes CDs in the SPLHCB super deluxe edition are easy to get clean extractions from (which illustrates how those tracks are likely to be in phase). One channel from the 2015 remix of "A Day In The Life" can be synched to another channel from the 2017 remix without any speed-changing being needed when synching them up. (So the digitised work tapes now provide a consistency from one release to another).

Here's an interesting site which talks about waveform polarity:

https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php

Depending on how a speaker has been wired internally or connected to the amplifier, it will either move in or out in response to a given input signal. As long as a single speaker is concerned, this direction has no influence on the perceived sound. Our ears are simply not sensitive to the absolute phase (please refer to our Absolute Polarity Blind Test if you don't believe us). However, when using two (or more) speakers, polarity defines how these speakers interact with each other. Speaker polarity then becomes a very important parameter to check.

When polarity is wrong, the speakers will be out of phase. One will move in, while the other moves out. At the listening position (right in between the speakers) the displaced air from one will be cancelled out by the other. This effect - stronger at lower frequencies - will result in a loss of bass. It also drastically distorts the stereo imaging.

Relative polarity is important for headphones as well. Hopefully, headphones are correctly wired at the factory. If not - such as in cheap brands or wrong batches - your brain will have a hard time to correctly locate sounds in the stereophonic space. Play the test files above and check if the "In Phase" examples produce a clear, focused sound. "Out of phase" variations should leave your brain with the impression of a sound twisted inside your head (there won't be any frequency cancelling this time, because the two speakers are physically separated by your head).
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Tex
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

Post by Tex »

Unless you can get the a full width mono playback head in absolute alignment then it seems to me it'll pick up frequencies at slightly different times on the opposite edges of the mono tape. Then those slightly out of sync signals are mixed down to mono in the playback head itself making the high end less than crisp or phasey/fuzzy.

The work around is to transfer with a stereo tape head so it captures both sides of the mono tape independently but does NOT combine the signals.

I believe it was actually stated the transfers sounded better using modern tape heads versus old tape heads. I assume "modern" would be stereo and old would be vintage full width mono heads.

Yes, they should have just picked one channel during mastering for CD and duplicated that into both channels. They may have thought though that something would have been lost by picking one channel over the other such as one side having better low end or the other having better high end so they just left the transfers as is. The differences are microscopic anyways.

Also they were on a tight release schedule because George Martin demanded they transfer the mono versions instead even after they had already transferred the stereos for release.
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

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Doug wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:23 pm If I remember correctly, 2 of the 4 Canadian CDs had inverted waveforms compared to the U.S. issues. Is there any way to tell which is "right"? IS there such a thing as "right" when it comes to that?
It makes no difference and there is no "right". In analogue audio electronic circuits, the device called the op-amp (basically a preamplifier) has two different inputs: a "+" input and a "-" input. Either can be used, but one will produce an inverted output. Transistor preamplifiers can also be configured in inverting and no-inverting forms. In the inverted form, the speaker cone will pull instead of push at any given moment, but that makes no difference at all to the sound as we hear it.

In between Ringo's drum kit and your speakers, the signal could have been flipped 180 degrees a dozen times by all the multitude of different pre-amps and circuitry in the mixing desk, recorders, cutting lathe preamps and whatever. It has no effect on the sound (other than being degraded slightly each time it goes through a circuit).
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Lord Reith
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

Post by Lord Reith »

Engonoceras wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:03 am Unless you can get the a full width mono playback head in absolute alignment then it seems to me it'll pick up frequencies at slightly different times on the opposite edges of the mono tape. Then those slightly out of sync signals are mixed down to mono in the playback head itself making the high end less than crisp or phasey/fuzzy.

The work around is to transfer with a stereo tape head so it captures both sides of the mono tape independently but does NOT combine the signals.
Yes, I agree with this. Mono playback heads are much more difficult to align.

Some of the tracks on the 2013 rerelease of Live At The BBC are transferred worse than the 1994 version. For instance Slow Down has a lot of phasing on the later version, and I'd bet my head it is because of an incorrectly aligned mono head.

The guy who did the 87 cds Mike Jarrett said he transferred the first four using a vintage mono machine but didn't like the results and so used a stereo machine instead. I think maybe the Disque Americ cds of A Hard Days Night and With The Beatles are from the mono playback head transfer.
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r9453
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

Post by r9453 »

I don't have the link but this is the part where he talks about the mono CDs:

Steve Hoffman Music Forums

Interview with Mike Jarrett about Beatles CDs

Yesterday I picked up an old copy of 'Record Collector' (June 1987), and found the following interview about The Beatles on CD with Mike Jarrett;

RC: How was the decision made as to whether mono or stereo CDs should be issued?
MJ: There was a problem; whether to issue mono or stereo, or whether to remix. If you could hear the mono and stereo master tapes, you'd be in no doubt that the mono tapes sound better. I did check all the paperwork, and it appears that much more time was spent on the mono mixes, because back at that time very few people had stereo, In fact, I did prepare both mono and stereo digital master tapes. George Martin came in and give the OK for the mono tapes.
The third and fourth albums were recorded in 4-track, and proper stereo mixes are obviously available; but even with these albums they were produced for a predominantly mono market. That's why they were issued on CD in mono.

RC: When you were mastering the CDs, did you play with the sound of the original tape, to add equalisation or compression?
MJ: Again, I referred to the original documentation to see what was done in the Sixties. I've had a couple of years' experience as a cutting engineer, so I knew what changed had to be made for purely technical reasons and what had been done for artistic reasons, so I hope I managed to get the best from the tapes.
I even did experiments with running the master tapes through the machines that were actually in use at the time; but i found that the best sound came from using modern machines with 2-track heads.

RC: How have the master tapes stood up over the years?
MJ: Very well indeed. We do store our master tapes exceptionally carefully. They're sealed in plastic bags and then sealed again in tins, and kept in a special vault which has specific temperature and humidity. I did have a couple of heart-stopping moments when some of the joins fell apart, but I just rejoined them with modern editing tape. The problem was the way that the original splices were done; age has just dried up the paste they had used for editing!
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Lord Reith
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Re: Disque Americ Revolver

Post by Lord Reith »

r9453 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:35 am I don't have the link but this is the part where he talks about the mono CDs:
Thanks for that! That clears it up.
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