Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

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Lord Reith
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by Lord Reith »

skynet wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:52 pmHD Tracks uses a different type of approach when watermarking
Could you elaborate please? If there's any watermarking on the hirez I would rather just stick with the cd.

I was going to buy the vinyl but after reading all the complaints about warping, I'm not even going to bother with that. Like the old phrase "No taxation without representation" I also firmly believe in "No corner cutting without appropriate pricing".
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by alphabeatles »

Lord Reith wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:31 pmI was going to buy the vinyl but after reading all the complaints about warping, I'm not even going to bother with that.
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by skynet »

Lord Reith wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:31 pm
skynet wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:52 pmHD Tracks uses a different type of approach when watermarking
Could you elaborate please? If there's any watermarking on the hirez I would rather just stick with the cd.

I was going to buy the vinyl but after reading all the complaints about warping, I'm not even going to bother with that. Like the old phrase "No taxation without representation" I also firmly believe in "No corner cutting without appropriate pricing".
Not much, since the method is supposed to be patented, confidential and propietarie, and i am not even sure if the method they use can really be called "watermarking" (this goes way back to the beginning of 2000s), but is my understanding that whenever you purchase a track or an album through HD tracks they use an algorithm (provided by vendors UM, or whoever the hell is the publisher) that is basically a method using metadata, this does not affect the quality of the tracks but is an easy way to track them down, this is used by the computer in which the file is played for automatically retrieving and presenting data associated with an audio recording having unique identifying indicia therein. A listing of codes within the computer system is automatically searched to find a code corresponding to the unique identifying indicia in a remote DB. In response to finding the code corresponding to the unique identifier, metadata is flagged in the vendor database whenever the audio file does not belong to the system from the "purchaser" (and no, i am not sure if this is done by either flagging IP or MAC addresses which would make sense, also remember that whoever bought a track on HDTracks and other "digital stores" leave all their information available, from name to mail address, which in the case of HD Tracks generates a unique user id which is used as part of their tracking system). Microsoft patented in 2008 i believe, a "stealthy audio watermarking" as well which Universal supposedly is using called El Dorado. According to the patent, El Dorado is, among other things, "designed to survive all typical kinds of processing, including compression, equalization, D/A and A/D conversion, recording on analog tape and so forth. It is also designed to survive malicious attacks that attempt to remove or modify the watermark from the signal, including changes in time and frequency scales, pitch shifting and cut/paste editing."

Is my understanding also that Universal and Sony already declined to discuss who developed their watermarks and what they would do with the information they cull from their analyses when questioned about it (from audio engineers to executives).

i know there is a well and far more versed people here to talk about that tech, but that is as far as i know...
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by ruedabeat »

skynet wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:36 pm
Lord Reith wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:31 pm
skynet wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:52 pmHD Tracks uses a different type of approach when watermarking
Could you elaborate please? If there's any watermarking on the hirez I would rather just stick with the cd.

I was going to buy the vinyl but after reading all the complaints about warping, I'm not even going to bother with that. Like the old phrase "No taxation without representation" I also firmly believe in "No corner cutting without appropriate pricing".
Not much, since the method is supposed to be patented, confidential and propietarie, and i am not even sure if the method they use can really be called "watermarking" (this goes way back to the beginning of 2000s), but is my understanding that whenever you purchase a track or an album through HD tracks they use an algorithm (provided by vendors UM, or whoever the hell is the publisher) that is basically a method using metadata, this does not affect the quality of the tracks but is an easy way to track them down, this is used by the computer in which the file is played for automatically retrieving and presenting data associated with an audio recording having unique identifying indicia therein. A listing of codes within the computer system is automatically searched to find a code corresponding to the unique identifying indicia in a remote DB. In response to finding the code corresponding to the unique identifier, metadata is flagged in the vendor database whenever the audio file does not belong to the system from the "purchaser" (and no, i am not sure if this is done by either flagging IP or MAC addresses which would make sense, also remember that whoever bought a track on HDTracks and other "digital stores" leave all their information available, from name to mail address, which in the case of HD Tracks generates a unique user id which is used as part of their tracking system). Microsoft patented in 2008 i believe, a "stealthy audio watermarking" as well which Universal supposedly is using called El Dorado. According to the patent, El Dorado is, among other things, "designed to survive all typical kinds of processing, including compression, equalization, D/A and A/D conversion, recording on analog tape and so forth. It is also designed to survive malicious attacks that attempt to remove or modify the watermark from the signal, including changes in time and frequency scales, pitch shifting and cut/paste editing."

Is my understanding also that Universal and Sony already declined to discuss who developed their watermarks and what they would do with the information they cull from their analyses when questioned about it (from audio engineers to executives).

i know there is a well and far more versed people here to talk about that tech, but that is as far as i know...
Interesting, annoying and disturbing. I can understand they can grabb a file when you buy it(HDfiles), even include info in Metadata, but what about the CD, BDs or any other material media, that could be only a unique mark or metadata for all that serial stuff.

Disturbing. :shock:
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by zaval80 »

I use two PCs, one is plugged into the Web, the other is not. Double-easy.
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by Kwai Chang »

skynet wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:36 pm [ Microsoft patented in 2008 i believe, a "stealthy audio watermarking" as well which Universal supposedly is using called El Dorado. According to the patent, El Dorado is, among other things, "designed to survive all typical kinds of processing, including compression, equalization, D/A and A/D conversion, recording on analog tape and so forth. It is also designed to survive malicious attacks that attempt to remove or modify the watermark from the signal, including changes in time and frequency scales, pitch shifting and cut/paste editing."
Is my understanding also that Universal and Sony already declined to discuss who developed their watermarks and what they would do with the information they cull from their analyses when questioned about it (from audio engineers to executives).
Thank you skynet!
I have had these visions ever since I heard about clouds and all that they purport to do for the user. Face it, this is the end of technological evolution. The format is nearly complete. Call it serialized roll call. There will be unique electronic signatures for every image, music file, movie file, blueprint, lyric, literature, etc. All devices will be serialized. It will be the equivalent of an ant farm. ANY/All activity begins with sign-in. This involves a registered 'membership'(more serial numbers) for users. Devices and files will all have serial numbers. The need for watermarks, scrambled transmissions, decoders, etc will not exist. That's because every device will really be a smart meter. Every activation is monitored and authorized. Unauthorized attempts/usage will be reported, taxed, terminated, and possibly suspension of user license. There will be no physical media to exploit. It's too heavy. Just the expense of NOT handling 'mass' will see stock values skyrocket at the outset. The revenue from product 'enforcement' will be without limit. These are very general descriptions of idealistic objectives but they aren't too far fetched. The technology is here already to do all that I have described. The likelihood of such change is typified by the attempts to replace physical with streaming. I can't imagine any black-market pirate box PIN-generator sidestepping of this new paradigm. It is an old vision that IS now closer to existing than it has ever been. It is a corporate dream come true. Consider it eminent. The irony is that the industries involved(music) will realize more profit than any other industry, more profit than they ever thought possible and for the first time ever, allow all operation to be paid for with honest capital. If you've ever gotten a traffic ticket from a camera mounted on a light pole above an intersection, this will be similar...but quicker and harder to argue against. Burdon of proof will be on the accused. These are the good old days...right now...on this forum. I can't say when the coming changes will arrive. But, they will arrive. I just can't fathom the logistics of it all. The line of people that is always out the door at Van Nuys Courthouse always leads to the traffic court. The line for DMCA violations will be much longer. Or, the serial number of your cloud membership will look eerily similar to your checking account number and you well be able to file an appeal online...and wait for judgement! If you ever want to humble yourself, then try to enjoy and appreciate just how fortunate we are here...now. It won't last forever!
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Don't think me pessimistic. Try and read between the lines. I am only a carpenter...but, these visions are my own and I believe them to be fact...not fiction. Home taping is killing music!
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by Lord Reith »

I don't know whether downloads from places like HD tracks contain personally identifiable watermarks but I would not think so. That would mean that every person who downloads it would have to have a special set of files encoded just for them. That would be unwieldy and expensive since it's undoubtedly licensed per use. The only time there would be a personal watermark is when they're sending out review copies. If the version that leaked on the torrents was a review copy, they would know who leaked it straight away.

I just can't get my head around the cynicism of deliberately degrading what is supposed to be a superior audio format. That shows, if anything, that they just view hirez as snake oil and therefore don't regard degrading the sound as anything important. I've never been sold on the whole hirez business anyway, but I can tell you that now there isn't a hope in hell I will ever buy a hirez download from any of those places. Not on your nellie.

Stick with cds I say.
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by Tex »

I've actually paid for the HD download which is at 96khz, 24 bit.

I know some of the leaked stuff had weird noise at the end of some tracks almost like an air conditioner in the background that continued even after the fade. Is that the watermarking? I have not examined the HD downloads.

Man, the original mono mix of "Paperback Writer" sounds so much better than the 2022 stereo remix. The new mix sounds oddly EQ'd to me. All the remixes have a weird pinched in hollow sound compared to the originals which have a very clear and present mid-range.
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by Fast lucky »

It is above my understanding that a digital copy recorded in analog then back in digital would carry a watermark.

SCMS marked an original digital copy preventing from being itself copied. But it is done in the digital recording, not analogic.

Regarding deliberately degraded sound, Sony did it with SACD. They found the achievable sound too good and wanted to degrade it.
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Re: Audio watermarking on the Revolver SDE

Post by Lord Reith »

Fast lucky wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:33 pm It is above my understanding that a digital copy recorded in analog then back in digital would carry a watermark.

SCMS marked an original digital copy preventing from being itself copied. But it is done in the digital recording, not analogic.

Regarding deliberately degraded sound, Sony did it with SACD. They found the achievable sound too good and wanted to degrade it.
No we mean watermarking not copy protection. The watermark doesn't stop anyone from copying the audio. It just marks where it came from.

I OOPSED together two different HD downloads of Taxman and that just leaves the watermark on one of them and it is horrible. It sounds like a mixture of tremelo and autotune gone mad. It is at a low level but people with sensitive ears can hear these things, and the whole point of HD downloads is to supposedly provide higher quality audio for people with good hearing and equipment. So the whole practice is making a mockery of the format. How many people paid for what they imagine to be a superior format and don't realise it has been deliberately degraded by introducing artefacts? That they'd be better off just getting the cd? It really sux. Just shows how they don't give a rats ass about their customers.
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