PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

[beatlesondvd]

Looking forward to reading what you've just posted, Mike! (Must get my son to school first!) In the meantime, here's my breakdown of 'Remember'.

[beatlesondvd]

At this point of the analysis, when everything seemed to be relatively ‘working’, HMC shows further 11 minutes of rehearsals –totally not documented- in which John and the other are testing changes in the arrangement of bass lines or piano, we can hear: "Do you want to know the chords Klaus, it might help ?" or "Bring me the words and get Mal to bring the electric piano"

The only way to explain this ‘extra sessions’ is to suppose they continued to rehersal takes after take 13, but in the end they decided to remain on the ‘old arrangement’ and work on the first 5 minutes of take 13, not bothering to document tk 14, 15 etc. on mastertapes notes.

I haven't listened to it recently, but couldn't these rehearsal takes be the remnants of a tape that was recorded over with proper takes?

[maul]

At this point of the analysis, when everything seemed to be relatively ‘working’, HMC shows further 11 minutes of rehearsals –totally not documented- in which John and the other are testing changes in the arrangement of bass lines or piano, we can hear: "Do you want to know the chords Klaus, it might help ?" or "Bring me the words and get Mal to bring the electric piano"
The only way to explain this ‘extra sessions’ is to suppose they continued to rehersal takes after take 13, but in the end they decided to remain on the ‘old arrangement’ and work on the first 5 minutes of take 13, not bothering to document tk 14, 15 etc. on mastertapes notes.

I haven't listened to it recently, but couldn't these rehearsal takes be the remnants of a tape that was recorded over with proper takes?

I don't think so, but yes; it's surely possible
For various reasons i prefer remain on the assumption of 'ghost tracks' at the end of reel E99928, although, to tell the truth, in EVERY reel there is enough free space to place this 'ghost' Remember's sessions, thus perhaps it's unnecessary to hypothesize a 'rewind' on previous tracks, but who knows?

[mikec]

Well said. I've been working on this for my review of the box, and came to the same conclusion. There are multiple levels of unclear or contradictory information in the documentation, which make things difficult, if not impossible to sort out. If we had complete tapes of all of the sessions... maybe... but we don't.

Excellent graphics !. On page one of this post I described it. That the “Hold On” and “Remember” session especially (as well as a couple of takes from the “Love” session) is a disaster if we focus on what the tape boxes say versus what we can hear in the Bootlegs. My original review had more detailed false starts and rehearsals between takes that were not registered by the engineers, but it sounded too "nerdy" so I cut it out. There are more than 42 “Hold On” takes, for example, if we count the false starts, breakdown takes, incorrect numbering, etc. I think HMC has a couple of tracks in the wrong place ("Glad All Over" one of them, but I have to check all my notes). We see that many of the POB sessions have similar errors in terms of numbering, takes not registered in the tape boxes ("God" from the Lennon Anthology, one of them, which is a Take that was not annotated in the session of October 7); and documentation in general.

Here's my breakdown of the 'Hold On' session (sorted out by bootleg.official release).

a collective thousand thanks for those invaluable informations

I’m hard –headed: yesterday i revised all, starting from the scratch and starting from the supposed easier :
I considered Remember’s relatively few takes they were easier to ‘reveal’, but i was pretty wrong: it’s a mess, like Hold On or Love

First of all it’s necessary to establish a minimal ‘solid ground’ from where to start: that is identifying the ‘big chunks’:
Take 3 (‘8:10’), Take 4 (‘9:00’) and Take 6 (‘9:40’)
HMC 048 has ‘’take 4’’ (8:44), ‘’take 5’’ (9:43) and ‘’take 8’’ (9:42)
In this case takes’ length can be deceptive, but if we take in account only the real ‘musical’ segment ’s length (without chats,pre-takes and whatever) all fall quite in place:
Take 3 (8:10) (‘musical portion’ 8:27) HMC 048 track 6 ‘’take 4’’ (8:44)
Take 4 (9:00) (‘musical portion’ 8:54) HMC 048 track 7 ‘’take5’’ (9:43) (George’s arrival at tape’s end reconfirms correctness of placement)
Take 6 (9:40) (‘musical portion’ 9:39) HMC 048 track 11 ‘’take 8’’ (9:42)

Now we can start to track the rest:
Reel E99485:
HMC’s track 2 is Take 1 (rehearsal 1) from 7 October and the subsequent track 3 obviously belongs to the same God Sessions
HMC’s track 4 is Rehearsal 2
HMC’s track 5 is the new (9 October) Take 1 ---and Take 2 (Breakdown)
(Mastertape’s Take 2 signaled length (circa 0:54) is ‘distributed’ between the end of HMC’s track 5 and chats at the beginning of track 6)
HMC’s track 6 is Take 3 (8:10)
HMC’s track 7 is Take 4 (9:00)
For this reel HMC sequence seems correct and ‘complete’, so, we go ahead

Change of Reel: E99486
HMC track 8 should surely be an undocumented take ‘x’, placed at tape’s start (0:00-0:46) before Take 5
HMC track 9 and track 10, combined, probably constitute the ‘breakdowned’ Take 5 (2:47)
HMC track 11 is Take 6

At this point of the reel we have five consecutive breakdown/false start takes (7, 8, 9, 10 and 11) , in six minutes
The HMC’s continuing sequence propose 7 ‘arbitrary’ tracks, actually containing 9 breakdowns/’takes’, in 5:40
The total length appears nearly to fit, so the problem seems only to distribute and ‘recognise’ the 5 ‘real’ takes contained in the seven HMC tracks

The mastertape shows that between take 6 end (13:10) and the real beginning of take 7 (14:15) there’s a ‘hidden’ minute that probably contains a further undocumented rehearsal or take ‘y’

So we can assume and summarise as follows :
HMC track 12 is undocumented Take ‘’Y’’
HMC track 13, 14 and part of 15, combined, approximately constituteTake 7
HMC track 15 is roughly Take 8
HMC track 16 is Take 9
HMC track 17 is Take 10
HMC track 18 is Take 11



Considering also ‘Take Y,’ the mastertape notes shows takes’ lengths surprisingly matching with ‘coherents segments’ of breakdowns in the 5:45 section
This is not a conclusive ‘scientific’ attribution, nevertheless the showed correspondings should be considered more than a coincidence.

HMC track 19 is Take 12

Change of Reel: E99928
HMC track 19 is Take 13, but this is not the ‘backtrack’, this is a later stage, with Jew’s Harp overdubs

At this point of the analysis, when everything seemed to be relatively ‘working’, HMC shows further 11 minutes of rehearsals –totally not documented- in which John and the other are testing changes in the arrangement of bass lines or piano, we can hear: "Do you want to know the chords Klaus, it might help ?" or "Bring me the words and get Mal to bring the electric piano"

Does this ruin everything in the previous reconstruction?

The only way to explain this ‘extra sessions’ is to suppose they continued to rehersal takes after take 13, but in the end they decided to remain on the ‘old arrangement’ and work on the first 5 minutes of take 13, not bothering to document tk 14, 15 etc. on mastertapes notes

Is this credible?

Take 13 lasted 9:00 but on mastertapes we can read: “take continues to 12.49 but this is not required for remix”,
actually we can hear take 13 surely ends at 8:47, so we already have 4 ‘unidentified’minutes that are not part of take 13 jam/coda



A fundamental point in favor of this risky theory is that the reel have more than 11 minutes of reel’s free space, so if it can’t be proven at least it stands in the field of possibility…

Thank you very much!

[mikec]

Looking forward to reading what you've just posted, Mike! (Must get my son to school first!) In the meantime, here's my breakdown of 'Remember'.

HMC has all this session messed up though (same as "Hold On" lol)

[Doug]

I can't buy into the "post take 13" theory for the mystery "Remember" audio. Listening to the material, it sounds like he's struggling to remember how the song goes - which certainly wouldn't the case if they'd just recorded the released take. They're also not takes, but loose rehearsals, so I'd go with the "something left over on one of the earlier tapes" that wasn't documented (perhaps Oct. 7th?).

[maul]

I can't buy into the "post take 13" theory for the mystery "Remember" audio. Listening to the material, it sounds like he's struggling to remember how the song goes - which certainly wouldn't the case if they'd just recorded the released take. They're also not takes, but loose rehearsals, so I'd go with the "something left over on one of the earlier tapes" that wasn't documented (perhaps Oct. 7th?).

yes, the first thing i thought is that make no sense asking for lyrics and chords after days of rehearsals and takes
but shouldn’t HMC have thought the same, too? It REALLY would be a crass carelessness

Anyway, rejecting the ‘post take 13 theory’ and focusing only on the evolution of Klaus' ‘bass lines’, i would place these 'ghost' rehearsal very very early (precisely Oct, 7th): Klaus never did again some particular embellishment or specific mistakes (that's why i assumed he was searching 'NEW bass lines'), actually he was struggling for A Bass Line )
As already noted, every considered Remember’s reel have enough free space to contain these ‘ghost’ rehearsals, but the bass part development place it at a very early stage, quite similar to Take 1/ Rehearsal 1 of Oct 7

But there’s a further disturbing fact: actually, all this 11 minutes of ‘mistery audio’ sound different not only from Oct 7 Take 1/ Rehearsal 1 but from any other HMC Cd’s track
They almost surely belong to a unique rehearsal but don’t seem to be part of the rest of the lot, but from another source (lower gen copy?), with some instruments slightly panned in stereo, expecially drums

[Doug]

Ah, good. I think we agree, then. I've put them as rehearsal tracks on the 7th (probably left over from rehearsals captured on the tape before "God" and the single breakdown of "Remember" were recorded). I think the sound quality could well be different because no one was paying much (if any) attention to the mix - they were no doubt just taping the rehearsals for reference, in case they were needed.

And I suspect HMC was just as confused as we were as to where to place them, which is why they were put at the end of the disc.

[ringo9]

Hi guys and thanks for all your comments. I've been reading this thread since day one but I'm wholly ignorant on this topic. Could you please make a post with instructions on how to assemble the most correct running order using the boots and the superdeluxe and the anthology based on your knowledge? Thanks a lot

[maul]

Ah, good. I think we agree, then. I've put them as rehearsal tracks on the 7th (probably left over from rehearsals captured on the tape before "God" and the single breakdown of "Remember" were recorded).

It should be in the final part of October 7's Reel E99488
in this reel there isn't enough free space at beginning or in the rehearsals/chat 'links' between Takes
after God Take 20, instead, there are 15 free minutes available

In listening to Hold On sessions, i found the tendency to not register on mastertape boxes the loose rehearsals'/noodlings/chatting etc.
in general, only the 'formal' Takes/Rehearsals were documented,
so is perfectly normal not finding any paper trails of these tracks

God Take 16 (00:05-3:14)
link (0:34)
Remember Take 1 (3:48-6:47)
God Take 17 (7:23-BD)
-
God Take 18 (8:42-12:10)
link (0.37)
God Take 19 (12:47-FS)
-
God Take 20 (13:23- 17:00)
Remember undocumented Rehearsals?

I think the sound quality could well be different because no one was paying much (if any) attention to the mix - they were no doubt just taping the rehearsals for reference, in case they were needed.

Ok, but i was not referring to sporadic or random variations, i meant that all HMC Remember's tracks are practically Mono.
And only the 11 minutes of 'ghost session' have the drums in stereo

7 Oct
E99488 Mono
undocumented rehearsal Stereo
9 Oct
E99485 Mono
E99486 Mono
and this could mean something (or also nothing at all )

And I suspect HMC was just as confused as we were as to where to place them, which is why they were put at the end of the disc.

it make sense