PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

[Rupert Pupkin]

I will go - just by intuition and after having listened to all the takes on POB deluxe + the Evolution documentary track George played electric guitar on the earliest takes of "Instant Karma!" - including the "studio demo" with John on electric keyboard; and the sound engineer kept George's electric track on the multitrack tape.
If they would have done a reduction mix and since George's electric guitar track take of "Instant Karma!" was perhaps longer than the official-final take cut chosen for the 45rps, it was kept on the multitrack tape.
So when "Legend" DVD came out with this unfaded/unedited final take of "Instant Karma!" that's probably how George's electric guitar appears in the end of the tape (because the final take considered at "best" cut for the 45rps was shorter than what was re-corded at the beginning).

Because I don't think George could have taken back his electric guitar to add at the very end of the coda of the final take this abrupt guitar-riff (which sounds coming from a previous overdub "layer" or take) when the Evolution documentary track shows that after the warmin'up, the studio demo, George quickly dropped the electric guitar in favor of an acoustic guitar. At least, that sounds like it when you listen to the Evolution Documentary track- if it is a collage in chronological order.

What do you think about this "idea"?

and about the bell intro for "Mother" ? (I remember Chip found out what was the airport voice at the very end of "Starting Over" and probably the bell intro of "Starting Over" which "echoed" to the mourning-haunting bell of "Mother") - from what tape comes the bell's intro of "Mother". A library tape sound from EMI ?

[bonniegreg]

I recall an interview (somewhere) with John in which he says it was a small tea bell that they recorded and slowed down to create the ominous bell for the intro to Mother. The sonic evidence points to this idea. There is an extraordinary amount of noise and rumble that wouldn't normally be present on a library recording.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I recall an interview (somewhere) with John in which he says it was a small tea bell that they recorded and slowed down to create the ominous bell for the intro to Mother. The sonic evidence points to this idea. There is an extraordinary amount of noise and rumble that wouldn't normally be present on a library recording.

yes, perhaps it was in John Lennon's last interview, december 1980(partially released on the CD "Testimony"). I remember Lennon talking about the opening haunting bells of "Mother" vs the "bells" of "Just Like" (Starting Over)". And you are right, the sound as some audio artefacts which indicates that it has been slowed down.
But I would be curious to find the original sample (perhaps from EMI library like a lot of Beatles sounds); but according to your post : it is even most interesting and intriguing : John would have made this sound contrary to Pink Floyd.
After all, the live bells from Pink Floyd Wembley 74 show have been just I.D on a famous Pink Floyd tracker (yeeshkul).

[Rondordrecht193]

John Lennon: At the beginning of 'Mother' it's a church bell which I slowed down (from a 45rpm single) to 33. So it's like a horror movie. That was the death knell of the whole Mother-Father Freudian trip.

[mikec]

I will go - just by intuition and after having listened to all the takes on POB deluxe + the Evolution documentary track George played electric guitar on the earliest takes of "Instant Karma!" - including the "studio demo" with John on electric keyboard; and the sound engineer kept George's electric track on the multitrack tape.
If they would have done a reduction mix and since George's electric guitar track take of "Instant Karma!" was perhaps longer than the official-final take cut chosen for the 45rps, it was kept on the multitrack tape.
So when "Legend" DVD came out with this unfaded/unedited final take of "Instant Karma!" that's probably how George's electric guitar appears in the end of the tape (because the final take considered at "best" cut for the 45rps was shorter than what was re-corded at the beginning).

Because I don't think George could have taken back his electric guitar to add at the very end of the coda of the final take this abrupt guitar-riff (which sounds coming from a previous overdub "layer" or take) when the Evolution documentary track shows that after the warmin'up, the studio demo, George quickly dropped the electric guitar in favor of an acoustic guitar. At least, that sounds like it when you listen to the Evolution Documentary track- if it is a collage in chronological order.

What do you think about this "idea"?

and about the bell intro for "Mother" ? (I remember Chip found out what was the airport voice at the very end of "Starting Over" and probably the bell intro of "Starting Over" which "echoed" to the mourning-haunting bell of "Mother") - from what tape comes the bell's intro of "Mother". A library tape sound from EMI ?

This is very interesting but you have to remember a few things:
What's called “Studio Demo” is actually Take 1, there are no more takes with George on electric guitar, just one; excerpts before starting it can be heard in EVOLUTION DOCUMENTARY as well as a fragment of that same Take 1 that was called “Studio demo” on the box which is complete on the Blu Ray / Digital. We can hear that the ending is completely different in terms of George's guitar riffs when compared to the Rough or Unedited Mix from Take 10 that came out on LEGEND / HAPPY XMAS CD SINGLE.
The same way as the vocal overdub (John), pianos (Harrison, Klaus and Alan White), backing vocals and applause were made on Take 10; an extra overdub of the organ (and possibly electric guitar) was attempted.
What makes me think that it is a later overdub done by George on Take 10, is that at the same time we can also hear an organ played by Billy Preston that also does not appear in the final mix, which makes us suppose that the two overdubs were made at the same time (electric guitar and organ).

[Rupert Pupkin]

John Lennon: At the beginning of 'Mother' it's a church bell which I slowed down (from a 45rpm single) to 33. So it's like a horror movie. That was the death knell of the whole Mother-Father Freudian trip.

thanks a lot to both of you! (bonniegreg thanks)

would you mind if I ask to the Yeeshkul Pink Floyd community thread (there's a thread open about SFX and EMI library and someone talked about POB) to see if they know from which 45rpm single this chuch bull was taken ?

[Rupert Pupkin]

I will go - just by intuition and after having listened to all the takes on POB deluxe + the Evolution documentary track George played electric guitar on the earliest takes of "Instant Karma!" - including the "studio demo" with John on electric keyboard; and the sound engineer kept George's electric track on the multitrack tape.
If they would have done a reduction mix and since George's electric guitar track take of "Instant Karma!" was perhaps longer than the official-final take cut chosen for the 45rps, it was kept on the multitrack tape.
So when "Legend" DVD came out with this unfaded/unedited final take of "Instant Karma!" that's probably how George's electric guitar appears in the end of the tape (because the final take considered at "best" cut for the 45rps was shorter than what was re-corded at the beginning).

Because I don't think George could have taken back his electric guitar to add at the very end of the coda of the final take this abrupt guitar-riff (which sounds coming from a previous overdub "layer" or take) when the Evolution documentary track shows that after the warmin'up, the studio demo, George quickly dropped the electric guitar in favor of an acoustic guitar. At least, that sounds like it when you listen to the Evolution Documentary track- if it is a collage in chronological order.

What do you think about this "idea"?

and about the bell intro for "Mother" ? (I remember Chip found out what was the airport voice at the very end of "Starting Over" and probably the bell intro of "Starting Over" which "echoed" to the mourning-haunting bell of "Mother") - from what tape comes the bell's intro of "Mother". A library tape sound from EMI ?

This is very interesting but you have to remember a few things:
What's called “Studio Demo” is actually Take 1, there are no more takes with George on electric guitar, just one; excerpts before starting it can be heard in EVOLUTION DOCUMENTARY as well as a fragment of that same Take 1 that was called “Studio demo” on the box which is complete on the Blu Ray / Digital. We can hear that the ending is completely different in terms of George's guitar riffs when compared to the Rough or Unedited Mix from Take 10 that came out on LEGEND / HAPPY XMAS CD SINGLE.
The same way as the vocal overdub (John), pianos (Harrison, Klaus and Alan White), backing vocals and applause were made on Take 10; an extra overdub of the organ (and possibly electric guitar) was attempted.
What makes me think that it is a later overdub done by George on Take 10, is that at the same time we can also hear an organ played by Billy Preston that also does not appear in the final mix, which makes us suppose that the two overdubs were made at the same time (electric guitar and organ).

oh, I did not notice that the beginning of the Evolution Documentary track is actually a warm'in up/short rehearsal of the take 1 (the so-called studio demo) of "Instant Karma"; I don't know why they have edited like this track. Perhaps to "save" some electric guitar on the Evolution Documentary track.
The problem with these "Evolution Documentary" is that they are very frustrating, and perhaps not totally accurate.
Logically this should be chronological order.
Like for "Love" - the changes of guitars (electric guitar with tremolo (demo), acoustic guitar in studio, attempt to replay it with electric guitar and same echo effect)

they are doing a bit like this great fan-Beatles bootleg which was titled "Men & Horses, Hoops & Garters" (I don't know if they were aware of this great fan-Beatles title) : at the end of some tracks they are just playing with the stereo panning and the faders (like for "Instant Karma!")

but you are right, it seems that George's electric guitar or Billy Preston's organ is back at the very end of this "unfaded" mix of "Instant Karma!"
which makes me wonder : why don't we have a different mix of "Instant Karma!" with electric guitar ?
when I discovered the electric guitar by George on "Instant Karma" (the so-called studio demo) I said to myself "this is it!".
After having listened to this take 1, I can't stand the choir anymore. And if John and George wanted to put some electric guitar for the final mix; it's sad that they did not keep these overdubs.
So far, the 45rps of "Instant Karma!" was one of the best production I've heard of John's solos 45rps, until I discover the electric guitar of take 1.
The chorus remind us "She Loves You"(and the verses makes me think of "All You Need Is Love")- I remember during these "One To One" '72 rehearsals John's playing Instant Karma and singin' "Yeah yeah yeah" during the chorus (a-la "She Loves You") instead of "we all shine on"...

[mikec]

We must be careful when we listen to the EVOLUTION MIXES, as not all the tracks follow a chronological recording order.

The 3 singles seem to be correct, but the main songs on the album do not follow an exact rule of how they were recorded; in some cases, the overdubs made days or weeks later are included in the middle of the "evolution", and it returns to other takes that were made long before those overdubs.

For example “I Found Out”, which shows a mix of recordings made on September 27 and October 7 without a true chronological order.

Similar case with “God” or “Well Well Well”, which begins with a fragment of studio talk before Take 1 recorded on September 27, 1970, but is immediately linked with a fragment of Take 5, recorded on October 6 and then returns to the session of September 27 with an alternate fragment of Take 2 (without eliminating some phrases from John, contrary to how it appears on the album “Out-takes”) and at the end it is joined with dialogue before Take 4 to close with that same Take but already with the overdubs made on October 18.

Also, all EVOLUTION MIXES present the original recordings, without tape echo, when comparing the same takes on the Out-takes or Raw Mixes discs.

[ennolenno]

This is very interesting but you have to remember a few things:
What's called “Studio Demo” is actually Take 1, there are no more takes with George on electric guitar, just one; [...]

Well, I don't think so.
The Evolution mix starts with the studio demo (or better "take 1", as you say), with George on electric guitar, preceded by some guitar and bass warm up/rehearsal ("No no no don't double it [...]").
This introduction/rehearsal lasts about 33 seconds before take 1 starts.

Then at about 1:10 into the Evolution mix, there is a more or less hard cut/edit. While the complete studio demo/take 1 on the Blu Ray continues with the next verse at that point (at 0:37 into the complete take 1), the Evolution mix continues with the instrumental backing for the chorus, before breaking down at 1:25 into that mix. At 1:25, there is another edit, followed by some acoustic guitar noodling and chat ("We need the tambourine man [...]").

But in this little segment after the edit at 1:10 until 1:25 in the Evolution mix, George is still on electric!

So I assume that this little segment/snipped (0:15) must be spliced in from another take - take 2 (or maybe 3), with George still on electric, before he changed to acoustic from take 3 (or maybe 4) onwards.

[mikec]

This is very interesting but you have to remember a few things:
What's called “Studio Demo” is actually Take 1, there are no more takes with George on electric guitar, just one; [...]

Well, I don't think so.
The Evolution mix starts with the studio demo (or better "take 1", as you say), with George on electric guitar, preceded by some guitar and bass warm up/rehearsal ("No no no don't double it [...]").
This introduction/rehearsal lasts about 33 seconds before take 1 starts.

Then at about 1:10 into the Evolution mix, there is a more or less hard cut/edit. While the complete studio demo/take 1 on the Blu Ray continues with the next verse at that point (at 0:37 into the complete take 1), the Evolution mix continues with the instrumental backing for the chorus, before breaking down at 1:25 into that mix. At 1:25, there is another edit, followed by some acoustic guitar noodling and chat ("We need the tambourine man [...]").

But in this little segment after the edit at 1:10 until 1:25 in the Evolution mix, George is still on electric!

So I assume that this little segment/snipped (0:15) must be spliced in from another take - take 2 (or maybe 3), with George still on electric, before he changed to acoustic from take 3 (or maybe 4) onwards.

Thanks, please check your information, remember that ALL the tracks in Evolution are carefully edited if you compare them to the full takes, so don't be fooled by edits that sound different. What you mention between 01:10 and 01:25 is the same thing you can hear on Blu Ray / Digital (“Studio Demo”/Take 1) between 02:47 and 03:25, only in Evolution it's edited without you noticing it and it's Take 1 with Harrison on the electric guitar.
I share what we hear in EVOLUTION MIX and the exact times:

INSTANT KARMA EVOLUTION MIX:
00:01-01:24- Pre chat with George (on electric guitar) and an EDITED fragment of TAKE 1 (also known as “Studio Demo”)
01:25-02:24 –Chat after Take 2 (Take 2 is missing, it was a False Start), John requests a tambourine man and Take 3 (breakdown take, still without a tambourine) George is on acoustic guitar since take 2 according to the official documentation and we can hear it like that on that chat after Take 2.
02:25-03:05 - Practice + Take 4 announcement only (a fragment of the actual Take 4 (already with tambourine), which was a breakdown take can be heard only on the RAW STUDIO disk before Take 5)
03:06- 03:39 -An EDITED fragment of Take 5 (full take can be heard on the Out-takes and Raw Studio discs)
04:00-04:31- Take 6 (which was a false start according to the tape box but it was more like a breakdown take)
04:32-06:00 -Practice and Take 7 (breakdown take)
06:01-06:18- Take 8 (two false starts)
06:19-06:28- Take 9 (breakdown)
06:29-06:30- Take 10 (original count-in and announcement only)
06:31 -08:47- Take 10 with the many overdubs (second piano, new vocal, handclaps, more piano played by Harrison, Klaus and Alan, chorus, organ by Preston and electric guitar riff by Harrison)