PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

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maul
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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by maul »

ringo9 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:14 pm Hi guys and thanks for all your comments. I've been reading this thread since day one but I'm wholly ignorant on this topic. Could you please make a post with instructions on how to assemble the most correct running order using the boots and the superdeluxe and the anthology based on your knowledge? Thanks a lot
working on it, but even in the most optimistic of hypotheses i doubt it will lead to undisputable results; deficiencies and errors in official documentaion and the non-total reliability of HMC sequences are almost insurmountable obstacles to a ‘scientific’ reconstruction.
In these weeks i studied and analyzed twice this material, using various methodologies, but I always had to abandon, discouraged, and admitting there's no way to sort it out these tracks
Now I started again, this time not using mere calculations but focusing on a visual method (waveforms), which gave promising 'probabilistic' results, but, at the same time, will never provide certainties on ALL HMC's tracks.
Stay tuned :D
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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by maul »

CRACKING HOLD ON
Identifying all takes and the correct sessions’ order in HMC’s ‘Hold On’ appears impossible :shock: , as impeccably described by Mike:
The entire session recorded on September 30, 1970 is available but had a numbering criterion without much control: some false starts or incomplete versions were counted in with a take number but others were totally ignored by engineer John Leckie; warm-ups or in between-takes rehearsals were not registered, the announcement of each take was lost at some point (between 7 and 22, and resumed until 23; 24 is announced twice, etc). It can be seen in the notes of the tape box that several take numbers were crossed out, so in the end there were more than the 32 takes officially registered, plus 3 improvisations (Jams) and a couple of rehearsals: “Look at Me” and “Glad All Over”.

Having failed all my previous attempts calculation-based, this time I focused on ‘visual search /comparison’
that permitted easier and quicker search and comparing (or to formulate and/or reject lots of possible tracks sequences)
Another key point (this time) was to give maximum attention to in-between takes /undocumented ‘blank’ segments (signaled in red in figures and tabs), often hiding ‘something’, or crucial to make ends meet.

Majority of Hold On takes are not announced (one is even wrong), POB 50th tracks offer little help and Hold On's mastertape boxes are awfully written and much confusing, with many mistakes and often with greatly ‘rounded’ or wrong takes’ timing, (I got bad pictures, but even if they were legible, I bet the situation wouldn’t get any better :lol: ) thus hard searching for a split-second precision and corrispondence is a waste of time and a can be a hindrance :?: .

One more thing to take into account is the predictable discrepancies in defining :!: ‘takes borders’ :!: , between Mastertape notes,
HMC tracks indexing and what is observed in waveforms

But in the end, using this new approach, there have been some results, and more than I would have hoped (for example, I did not had to ‘displace’ any track in HMC’s track order :roll: ) :

E99700

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Contains a pre-take segment and two ‘in-between takes’
HMC presents correct numbering and the complete (Hold On) recordings content of this reel’s
(to be accurate, a further minute of ‘pre-take’ may be missing at the beginning)

E99701

Image

Image

Looks like the most confused mastertape notes ever :?
Contains a pre-take segment and several in-between undocumented segments: HMC’s track 12, track 16 (the ‘Jam-BD-Are We on‘ fragments),
track 17 (the ‘Look at Me’ Jam).
Also greater part of HMC’s track 23 is an undocumented dialog/testing.

Image

The second part of the reel is puzzling. At first i considered the idea of displacing track 25 to the following reel as ‘real take 21’ (track24 followed by 26 sounded great), but in the end the correct place of this fragment is between the little Jam1 and JAM 2.
Also the ‘real’ Take 19 is followed by an undocumented long dialog/test.
Rather surprisingly, -and despite the Jams ‘new infos’ exposed by POB 50th, -HMC still offers the correct sequence,
although with a complete wrong numbering. The evidence is that, also for this reel, HMC released the complete content (33:06)


E99702

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The material recorded at the beginning of this reel ( more than two minutes): ‘End of JAM 3' and ‘real Take 21’, is missing
Some undocumented sections are present; track 38 is another of these.
After the end of Take 24, in a undocumented segment, there’s a wrong “twentyfour!’’ take call :lol:
Except for a couple of tracks, HMC's numbering is correct, and apart from the first two minutes, the content of this Reel seems complete

SIMPLIFIED COMPARISON AND CONVERSION TABLE

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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by mikec »

maul wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:51 pm
Doug wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:13 pm Ah, good. I think we agree, then. I've put them as rehearsal tracks on the 7th (probably left over from rehearsals captured on the tape before "God" and the single breakdown of "Remember" were recorded).
It should be in the final part of October 7's Reel E99488
in this reel there isn't enough free space at beginning or in the rehearsals/chat 'links' between Takes
after God Take 20, instead, there are 15 free minutes available

In listening to Hold On sessions, i found the tendency to not register on mastertape boxes the loose rehearsals'/noodlings/chatting etc.
in general, only the 'formal' Takes/Rehearsals were documented,
so is perfectly normal not finding any paper trails of these tracks


God Take 16 (00:05-3:14)
link (0:34)
Remember Take 1 (3:48-6:47)
God Take 17 (7:23-BD)
-
God Take 18 (8:42-12:10)
link (0.37)
God Take 19 (12:47-FS)
-
God Take 20 (13:23- 17:00)
Remember undocumented Rehearsals?

Doug wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:13 pm I think the sound quality could well be different because no one was paying much (if any) attention to the mix - they were no doubt just taping the rehearsals for reference, in case they were needed.
Ok, but i was not referring to sporadic or random variations, i meant that all HMC Remember's tracks are practically Mono.
And only the 11 minutes of 'ghost session' have the drums in stereo :o

7 Oct
E99488 Mono
undocumented rehearsal Stereo
9 Oct
E99485 Mono
E99486 Mono
and this could mean something (or also nothing at all :D )
Doug wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:13 pm And I suspect HMC was just as confused as we were as to where to place them, which is why they were put at the end of the disc.
it make sense
Great info! Thanks
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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by mikec »

maul wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:22 pm CRACKING HOLD ON
Identifying all takes and the correct sessions’ order in HMC’s ‘Hold On’ appears impossible :shock: , as impeccably described by Mike:
The entire session recorded on September 30, 1970 is available but had a numbering criterion without much control: some false starts or incomplete versions were counted in with a take number but others were totally ignored by engineer John Leckie; warm-ups or in between-takes rehearsals were not registered, the announcement of each take was lost at some point (between 7 and 22, and resumed until 23; 24 is announced twice, etc). It can be seen in the notes of the tape box that several take numbers were crossed out, so in the end there were more than the 32 takes officially registered, plus 3 improvisations (Jams) and a couple of rehearsals: “Look at Me” and “Glad All Over”.

Having failed all my previous attempts calculation-based, this time I focused on ‘visual search /comparison’
that permitted easier and quicker search and comparing (or to formulate and/or reject lots of possible tracks sequences)
Another key point (this time) was to give maximum attention to in-between takes /undocumented ‘blank’ segments (signaled in red in figures and tabs), often hiding ‘something’, or crucial to make ends meet.

Majority of Hold On takes are not announced (one is even wrong), POB 50th tracks offer little help and Hold On's mastertape boxes are awfully written and much confusing, with many mistakes and often with greatly ‘rounded’ or wrong takes’ timing, (I got bad pictures, but even if they were legible, I bet the situation wouldn’t get any better :lol: ) thus hard searching for a split-second precision and corrispondence is a waste of time and a can be a hindrance :?: .

One more thing to take into account is the predictable discrepancies in defining :!: ‘takes borders’ :!: , between Mastertape notes,
HMC tracks indexing and what is observed in waveforms

But in the end, using this new approach, there have been some results, and more than I would have hoped (for example, I did not had to ‘displace’ any track in HMC’s track order :roll: ) :

E99700

Image

Image

Contains a pre-take segment and two ‘in-between takes’
HMC presents correct numbering and the complete (Hold On) recordings content of this reel’s
(to be accurate, a further minute of ‘pre-take’ may be missing at the beginning)

E99701

Image

Image

Looks like the most confused mastertape notes ever :?
Contains a pre-take segment and several in-between undocumented segments: HMC’s track 12, track 16 (the ‘Jam-BD-Are We on‘ fragments),
track 17 (the ‘Look at Me’ Jam).
Also greater part of HMC’s track 23 is an undocumented dialog/testing.

Image

The second part of the reel is puzzling. At first i considered the idea of displacing track 25 to the following reel as ‘real take 21’ (track24 followed by 26 sounded great), but in the end the correct place of this fragment is between the little Jam1 and JAM 2.
Also the ‘real’ Take 19 is followed by an undocumented long dialog/test.
Rather surprisingly, -and despite the Jams ‘new infos’ exposed by POB 50th, -HMC still offers the correct sequence,
although with a complete wrong numbering. The evidence is that, also for this reel, HMC released the complete content (33:06)


E99702

Image

Image

The material recorded at the beginning of this reel ( more than two minutes): ‘End of JAM 3' and ‘real Take 21’, is missing
Some undocumented sections are present; track 38 is another of these.
After the end of Take 24, in a undocumented segment, there’s a wrong “twentyfour!’’ take call :lol:
Except for a couple of tracks, HMC's numbering is correct, and apart from the first two minutes, the content of this Reel seems complete

SIMPLIFIED COMPARISON AND CONVERSION TABLE

Image
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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by 20YearsAgo »

Dang-- maul and mikec, together, thank you. What amazing sleuthing!
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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by Beatles4you »

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Last edited by Beatles4you on Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by maul »

PUZZLING OUT ‘’LOVE’’
‘Love’ is definitely the most difficult song to solve it out: a considerable number of circulating bootleg takes, poor, confused, contradictory or absent documentations, takes numbered twice, mistaken announcements :lol: : a bit of everything :?

E99853
HMC’s numbering is correct for the first five takes, then it becomes wrong
Interesting to know that HMC’s ‘track 9’ is ‘’Look At Me’’ Take 1 (False Start)
HMC released the complete ‘Love’s recordings content of this reel, in correct order.

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E99906
HMC’s numbering is totally wrong, for all tracks. Despite this, the "Love" content of this Reel is complete and in correct order

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E99854
This reel was incredibly troubling :o (and I’m not talking about the 'double' takes 12 and 13 ;) ) : lack of data and details blocked any attempt of ‘deep’ examination :oops: .
For what little i was able to analyse (and read), documentations sometimes clashes with waveforms :? , ‘songs borders’ are arbitrarily fixed :roll: , moreover, a bunch of seconds of this reel seem missing (in unidentifiable points of the reel)
I gave up :cry: . No way to proceed further .
After a day of stalemate, it hit me :idea: that this reel presents a lot of take announcements! 8-)
Relying on take calls, we can -roughly but effectively - examine and validate the reel’s material.
HMC practically released the complete content of this reel’s, in correct order.
The numbering is correct, except for ‘track 29’, that is not ‘takes 22-23’ but solely TAKE 23

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graphic is not definitive nor verified in details

Image

E99855
This time, to reconstruct at least part of the content of this reel, we need:
1) the usual track’s name/numbering correction
2) some tracks displacement
3) the insertion of the two ‘Love’ tracks released with HMC 051
4) After ‘real’ TAKE 33 we may add ‘I Don’t Wanna Be a Soldier Mama (JAM)’ from POB 50

> The concluding six minutes of the reel, containing Takes 34 and 35, unfortunately, are missing from HMC releases :cry:

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E99856
The last reel contains the final three takes.
HMC oddly put this two tracks before TAKE 28, with numbering unavoidably wrong
HMC released all the content of this reel

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Image


LOVE - SIMPLIFIED COMPARISON AND CONVERSION TABLE
> Reel E99854 and E99855 may have some incorrect timings due to unreadable or poor documentation

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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by mikec »

Remember to update your information regarding “Take 1” of Instant Karma as part of the “Out-Takes” which is actually Take 5 again, both in the 2-CD version, the box set or digital.
For some reason it appeared incorrectly as “Take 1” in the official track list published all over the world (fixed partially a few days ago in some places), or the art on the back of the box set or on the label of the 2-CD version; and it even appears the same way in the digital version and on platforms like Spotify (it appears correctly in the book and booklet).

INSTANT KARMA
-INSTANT KARMA -STUDIO DEMO (THE DEMOS BLU RAY EXCLUSIVE) 3:33 NEW ACTUALLY THIS IS TAKE 1
-INSTANT KARMA- TAKES 4/ 5 (RAW STUDIO BLU RAY EXCLUSIVE) 3:11 NEW
-INSTANT KARMA -TAKE 1/5 (CD 2 OUT-TAKES) 2:53 NEW THIS IS TAKE 5 AGAIN IN A DIFFERENT MIX
-INSTANT KARMA -TAKE 10 (w/OVERDUBS) (CD 4 RAW STUDIO)3:38 NEW

The “studio demo” recorded on January 27, 1970 is actually a primitive Take 1 and features John on electric piano, George Harrison on electric guitar, Klaus Voormann on bass and Alan White on drums. What makes it so different from the final version are George’s guitar embellishments throughout the track and a different piano used by John.
For Take 2 George has switched to acoustic guitar (his presence is practically not audible to most fans although in the ‘Ultimate Mix 2020’ it is easier to distinguish him in the left channel) and Mal Evans is integrated into the tambourine. John swaps some phrases in the “demo Take 1” and Take 5, compared to the final version.
Take 5 is actually preceded here by Take 4 (not listed) which is incomplete, Phil Spector can be heard stopping that take and announcing number five. Harrison’s acoustic guitar is more prominent in this take and belies what was previously believed: he was not in the session or only did a guitar overdub later. Here he can be heard talking to John several times during this session (especially on the EVOLUTION MIX, along with some incomplete takes).
Take 5 appears for the second time in this collection in a different mix with a lot of echo in John's voice and a false ending, incorrectly named “Take 1” in the original track list published worldwide (modified later in some places but the error was left in the official digital versions of this collection, also in Spotify for example)
Take 10 was selected as the best and is featured here with most of the additional overdubs: lead vocal; a piano played by Harrison, Alan and Klaus; handclaps and backing vocals by all participants plus Yoko Ono. It still lacks Phil Spector’s “Wall of Sound” mix and the echo in John’s voice. At the end John can be heard completely hoarse saying “just check and see if we got it”, coming from the original Take 10 long before these overdubs. Additional overdubs of piano and organ played by Billy Preston would complete the session (All elements are present on the EVOLUTION MIX from 6:35 to 8:41). All tracks appear for the first time.
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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by Rupert Pupkin »

always a pleasure to read to your impressive analyses...

regarding George's electric guitar on "Instant Karma!" I have an existential question :
on the official DVD "Legend" (2003), some songs (studio or live) are longer- they were ripped and a stereo mixdown has been done by the fans :

02. Instant Karma! - Longer version than all previously released versions, containing extra choruses at the end, no fade-out. : 3mn35
for those who wants to listen to the longer cut of "Instant Karma!" (I don't think it's on the POB deluxe box set) : hxxps://we.tl/t-xzfYCTA4xt

At the very end of "Instant Karma!" I was always intrigued by a guitar-riff - sounded to me like New York City riff, until I discovered George's electric guitar on Plastic Ono Band deluxe (and the part of the eletric guitar warm'in up rehearsals on the Evolution mix is even more obvious) : this is George's guitar at the end.
So what happened?
They add layers of overdubs for "Instant Karma!" but kept George's electric guitar from the early take on one of the multitrack of the final take of "Instant Karma" and when they release this particular studio version of "Instant Karma!" without the fade out of the 45rps we discover that George's electric guitar-riff can be heard at the very end ?
the longer version has an extra coda sung by John, then we only have the choir, then only the organ and then the electric guitar comes; just as if the final mix was shorter but when they release this take totally unfaded on "Legend" DVD, George's guitar is still at the very end of the tape.

another question : John is discussing at some point about wanting a bell (and it seems - but perhaps I'm wrongly understood) that he wants a bell to "punch" each verse; not only for the start- because I don't understand why Phil Spector tell him that he has to count and they will make a click track if this was only for the beginning.

From which library tape (EMI?) came the bell sound ? what is the exact name/title of this bell sound ? it sounds like it has been slowed-down (to increase the mourning atmosphere?)

for instance the bell use by Pink Floyd during the 74-75 live tour has been ID - and it's not the same than the opening bell of "Mother" :
Church Bells (Foreign) - Berlin Freedom Bell, single bell tolling.
https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/search?q=07015058
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Re: PLASTIC ONO BAND 2021 BOX SET-THE NEW TRACKS

Post by mikec »

Rupert Pupkin wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:02 am always a pleasure to read to your impressive analyses...

regarding George's electric guitar on "Instant Karma!" I have an existential question :
on the official DVD "Legend" (2003), some songs (studio or live) are longer- they were ripped and a stereo mixdown has been done by the fans :

02. Instant Karma! - Longer version than all previously released versions, containing extra choruses at the end, no fade-out. : 3mn35
for those who wants to listen to the longer cut of "Instant Karma!" (I don't think it's on the POB deluxe box set) : hxxps://we.tl/t-xzfYCTA4xt

At the very end of "Instant Karma!" I was always intrigued by a guitar-riff - sounded to me like New York City riff, until I discovered George's electric guitar on Plastic Ono Band deluxe (and the part of the eletric guitar warm'in up rehearsals on the Evolution mix is even more obvious) : this is George's guitar at the end.
So what happened?
They add layers of overdubs for "Instant Karma!" but kept George's electric guitar from the early take on one of the multitrack of the final take of "Instant Karma" and when they release this particular studio version of "Instant Karma!" without the fade out of the 45rps we discover that George's electric guitar-riff can be heard at the very end ?
the longer version has an extra coda sung by John, then we only have the choir, then only the organ and then the electric guitar comes; just as if the final mix was shorter but when they release this take totally unfaded on "Legend" DVD, George's guitar is still at the very end of the tape.

another question : John is discussing at some point about wanting a bell (and it seems - but perhaps I'm wrongly understood) that he wants a bell to "punch" each verse; not only for the start- because I don't understand why Phil Spector tell him that he has to count and they will make a click track if this was only for the beginning.

From which library tape (EMI?) came the bell sound ? what is the exact name/title of this bell sound ? it sounds like it has been slowed-down (to increase the mourning atmosphere?)

for instance the bell use by Pink Floyd during the 74-75 live tour has been ID - and it's not the same than the opening bell of "Mother" :
Church Bells (Foreign) - Berlin Freedom Bell, single bell tolling.
https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/search?q=07015058
Hello, regarding “Instant Karma”, there are two possibilities:
1- George recorded towards the end a small embellishment with the electric guitar in the same way that Billy Preston added organ, and none of these "decorations" can be heard in the commercial version that fades much earlier; they are only available in the mix that came out on the “Legend” DVD or Happy Xmas 2006 CD single, or in the POB box on the EVOLUTION MIX disc at the end you can hear these same embellishments.

2-George and Billy overdubbed on the entire track, electric guitar and organ, but they were wiped from the final mix, although they may be present on the multi-track tape.

Unfortunately there is no additional information.
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